Bullfighting

WoW.... talk about controversy. I was doing my usual searching on the internet for keywords, and I ran into a page that I found that might be of interest to some folks on a Google group (Mundo Taurino). The name Coleman came up and I thought hmmm... is that the same Coleman that I know. Well after checking my list, yes it was. So, I copied the link and sent it off to the group. And let me tell you, it was one heck of a reply after another. I'm not sure if the madness has stopped, but I will add as I get more.

In the meantime, attached in somewhat of an order are all of the responses from the regulars that belong to this group.

I almost feel so proud to be part of an important conversation... (I think).

As usual, I removed all email info for privacy reasons. Oh, and be prepared to be sitting here for a while.... it's pretty long. They have a LOT to say to each other.
******************************************************************

----- Original Message -----
From: konni
To: MundoTaurino
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 4:42 AM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Coleman's school

Hi Coleman,

I don't know if you saw this already, but I ran into it while searching for something. This is you ....right? I'm not even sure if it's a recent pic of you. But either way, I thought it was interesting enough to show you. http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=1446

Enjoy!
Konni

----- Original Message -----
From: wayne g. pearce
To: MundoTaurino
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 4:11 PM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

Konni, Gracias for that site. Mark F. is an amigo of mine - Mark
Finguerra, who was with Cole last season, for his annual class in Spain. Other amigo's Joe Fee Junior of Scotland and
Tom Russell, the great Americana Songwriter, Singer, and mystery novel author, all wrote me to let me know the incredably great time they had on Cole's trip. I do not think the photo that is shown, is Coleman. Or, Cole, am I mistaken? When I tried to see other photos of Mark F. y David Moss, y other photos, they would not come up. Konni, does one have to join this group to view the other photos. It is great in coloration used. I like this photographer.

Gracias mi Estimada Amiga for this
Most Respectfully
Wayne G. Pearce

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: MundoTaurino
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 5:08 AM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

Hi Wayne,

You're very welcome!

There's no membership to view this site and I was able to view the pics with no problem. I think initially, it takes a while to load up. But he does have protection set in place where you cannot save the files. Try it again and wait a few minutes this time. Or you can always ask your friends to send photos to you.

Good luck!
Konni =)

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Green
To: MundoTaurino
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 11:40 PM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

"Enjoy", you say? Enjoy what, Konni?

I have not had the time to join in on some of the interesting recent posts regarding afietado and also a bull's psychology, but thank you Jason, Michael R and Jim V for your informed thoughts on these subjects. After seeing these disgusting photographs at sportsshooter.com I now have to make the time to write...

I forgive El Hueno for his post (in this string) because he says he couldn't open the pictures, if he had been able to I don't think he would have written what he wrote -- or his post, last week, about Lyn's neighbour's dog was pure bs, and I think I know Wayne better than that.

I have no problem with hobbyists playing around with capotes and muletas, nor with Coleman taking money off the uninformed to cape anojos, erales and the air, or to be escorted to Europe where these people would probably be lost by themselves. However, I do have a problem with grown men, who have outgrown pulling the wings off butterflies and the legs off grasshoppers, taking an estoque to a hornless calf no bigger than a Great Dane.

I challenge Cooney to explain why the plump and balding Mark F. has to cruelly use an estoque on such a tiny animal. This Mark F. is not a teenager training to be a torero, he is an aging hobbyist. Even if he was in serious training what use would this particular killing be to a future torero? Why, if no one can afford to keep this calf alive, is it (he) not killed humanely. A bullet would do it, so would an injection, even a puntilla -- if there was anyone, other than the inept, present to use it correctly.

Then there's the photo of Mark F. "feeling a bit remorseful after killing his first bull" being consoled by Cooney, whilst some guy with a ponytail jabs away at the fallen, bleating, dying, bloody little calf. This, to me, is the definition of filth.

La Fiesta is about Art, Beauty, Control and Bravery in the face of Danger. Not one ounce of of these attributes, these joys, are present here. "Bullfight School", "Academy" - yet... If only it were a joke.

This is a disgrace to mankind, a skid mark on Toreo, and powerful ammunition for all anti-Taurinos as it skulks under the banner of being a "Bullfight School". This cowardly gore has nothing whatsoever to do with Toreo.

Cruelty to any living creature (without a single redeeming feature) is as UGLY as it gets, folks. It's very upsetting.

~OO0C
Michael Green

----- Original Message -----
From: konni
To: MundoTaurino
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 6:24 AM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

I only meant for the picture up top where it clearly states it's Coleman in the pic.

Enjoy as in... enjoy seeing yourself in the pic Coleman.

Actually, I had not seen the pics at the bottom of the site until Wayne had pointed out his technical difficulties. Only then did I see that it was a calf that they had killed. I too was bothered with that because it was still a baby. I firmly believe that you can go to "bullfight school" without having to kill a calf or a bull. You should be in "training" and not the real thing.

And as for Wayne being able to comment without seeing the photos, he was able to because he read the text next to each image, which clearly describes what each picture is about.

It sounds like you are a bit upset and I do understand your concerns, but at the same time..... one can easily blame or offend a person without thinking clearly.

In regards to your question why this Mark F. and others are doing what they were doing.... well, I look at it this way, there are "boys" and there are "men".... and then there are those "in between". I for years continue to wonder why boys are disgusting and why they do what they do sometimes..... and then I pray.

I live with 5 boys... go figure.

Just a note, these are just my views and opinions and NOT to be taken personally at all by anyone. I realize that there are majority men on here..... because I know some of you can relate.

God bless,
Konni =)

----- Original Message -----
From: Bruno Simòn Valdez
To: MundoTaurino
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 7:43 AM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

Killing an animal "puertas cerradas" is common practice when preparing/training.? "Mark F" will be making his first?appearance in public in Leon in March.? BTW, an inside source says it is indeed Coleman in the picture...

Bruno Sim򮠖ald麼/FONT>

Torero, Vi񡴥ro, Cervezero y Rosalero
http://www.darkbrownbuckets.com?

----- Original Message -----
From: salrivera
To: "Mundo Taurino"
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 8:59 AM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

Michael..... PETA membership applications are readily available at any MORRISSEY concert.

Sal.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Cornfield
To: MundoTaurino
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 7:10 PM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

Michael--You're right to be disgusted at that series of photos. I've got a good take on this issue, since I'm one of the "uninformed" adults who likes to play with these little creatures in the ring, somtimes under the auspices of cooney's school, somethimes up in central california with Dennis Borba, but never...never to draw blood. Just doing a few passes and learning a little of the ringcraft is plenty of enjoyment, for me. Anyway. I've been doing it for years now, and time and time again, I've received opportunities to kill an añojo or eral, from which I always demur. One afternoon at a tienta in Castillo de las Guardas, the ganadero "soltar'd" a young macho as a "gift" for me to matar. I got pissed, and told him to send it back to the corrales. I explained that I didn't kill, and if I did, I'd surely do it as badly as these hundreds of practicos who hack young animals to death in festivales all over spain and Mexico...unless they get real lucky, which they occasionally do. One goofus wasn't so lucky last year and in the interior of Mexico, dressed sin verguenza in an ill-fitting partial traje de luces, took 20 "estocadas" to kill his 2-yr old "enemigo."Even the act of taking a young becerra or becerro away from its herd and caping it in the tentadero is cruel. For me it's a way to get a few passes in, and drink in some ambiente. but we all skirt the issue here...anyone with an interest in bullfighting has got a problem, or we wouldn't be so hooked on it, going to corridas and supporting an atavistic spectacle that persists in the modern world as a holdover from the venaciones of the Roman amphitheater. I've got the gusano, so I make no apologies for my fascination with this blood sport, (Sherwood's right--so was Michener and Hemingwyay, there's no way to morally justify la fiesta), but the numerous grisly afternoons in places like TJ and Leon and Morelia, where anyone who can afford it can go through the motions of "toreo," deserve only contempt. Personally, I think La Fiesta should be a bloodless rodeo event, and not a celebration of death dealt by people who can't do it right. A guy I worked with in the service had killed a few times, and I told him my limited experiences with death in the service had been slow affairs, the folks lingered on. He extolled the virtues of killing quickly, if you have to do it at all. If you don't have to, then simply don't do it...certainly don't do it under the guise of a fucking hobby. Anyway, that's my personal take on this matter. I'm sure I'll inspire some socio who will tell us that sticking the steel in a calf who poses practically no physical danger to a torero is really a christian activity, and okay to do puerta cerrada. What bullshit.

JC

----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Roach
To: MundoTaurino
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 2:56 PM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

Hey rodeo boy,
How bout splaining that Christian remark.
Sounds like you have an anti-Christian bias.
--------
Don't you think that in your perfect rodeo-Toreo world that your fiesta might suffer due to the absence of the picador?
JR

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Cornfield
To: MundoTaurino
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 5:46 AM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

Jerry: you actually want to engage ME in a debate about religion? On THIS forum? Are you fuckin' nuts? (Speaking of nuts...I think you might know this: whatever happened to Jeff Pledge? Did I miss something? Like his demise, perhaps? Haven't seen one of his posts in months. I mostly deleted them, anyway, and I might start doing that to yours if you don't change that pinché type face.) Anyway, leave some room for other people's opinions. Coleman does; so do lots of contributors here who are a lot more taurino than you or me. Isn't that the mantra of all the hip, "post-modern" anti-Sherwoodians? Tolerance?

Saludos,

JC

----- Original Message -----
From: "coleman"
To: "Mundo Taurino"
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

> Konni - I'm running the horns for Mark in the picture. Thanks for bringing that photo page to our attention. I would have never seen it otherwise. The photographer is a very nice person but without any taurine background. They always pick the worst photos to display. No I lie, the worst are the photo editors.
>
> The photog is working for the NY Times, a publication that seems to have it in for Mark F. Last month they made club-goers seem a bit unbalanced this month they are covering our school. But with a difference, the journalist took the class and participated in a tienta. So he will have a perspective that the other journalist didn't have. A perspective that MIchael Green doesn't have either.
>
> I agree with Michael Green that killing small animals with swords is unseemly. But it is logical for adult students to kill small ones prior to to killing larger ones. And these larger ones in the 250 to 300 kg range while imposing on the ground can photograph poorly and look quite small when compared with a 400 kg novillo sin picar killed by a sixteen year old in Spain. Which in turn would be miau-ed at if tendido siete saw it in the wrong setting..
>
> So all this niggling over weight gets stupid finally. Are you a torero when you kill an eral? (once again, strictly speaking I agree with Michael - you're not) Mark F. has been in front of spanish cows that by weight are bigger than what most amateurs kill. So has Bruno. How stupid can we make this nitpicking? It is all connected to the ridiculous emotions that surround the idea of killing for entertainment. I thought John Faller made an excellent effort to lessen the static in his recent post. But it is really difficult and when it comes to a purse swinger like Michael Green, impossible.
>
> I prefer the tienta to almost any amateur festival but not because I pretend to understand how animals feel. Most amateur festivals are a mess not because of the individual performances (some of which can be excellent) but because by their nature they are disorganized and often shabby. A tienta can almost attain a laboratory atmosphere, there is a analytical element that means something because (don't read this part Michael) most of the small animals there receive a death sentence. (to
> be carried out later when they are fatter. horrors!) And then they will be eaten with relish. For entertainment.
>
> Mark and I ate his eral. (especially the filet mignon.) We heated it up and put small pieces IN OUR MOUTHS!! Later I kissed my two sons goodnight. Later still I went to mass and took the host. None of this is confusing to me or cruel. It seems like an exceptionally well ordered world.
>
> Mark did very well killing his first animal. (and he did it again this past week-end in central mexico) All this practice will be helpful should he decide to perform later in public. I think that the NY Times writer will get this across because I saw this writer in front of animals too and I stood next to him the burladero afterwards. The photos will stink however almost certainly. Because photo editors in NY don't get it. They have an excuse (ignorance) Aficionados who don't understand the very essence of the pastime they profess to love have an excuse too. They're neurotic.
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Roach"
To:
> Coleman
> Never apologize , never explain.
> maybe there is a MT Bloodless for the likes of those two. For the record the animal that "posed no danger to Mark" weighed 175 kilos and Mark displayed courage and skill, and killed with ONE sword..
> JR
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Green
To: MundoTaurino
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 9:01 PM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

Dear Coleman Cooney: As I have nothing to add to what I wrote before, other than to correct some of your message below, I shall insert my comments in blue...

coleman wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: bruce f hutton
To: MundoTaurino
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 5:25 PM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

jim and all, when i first saw the fotos i was not a happy camper at all. but then i thought that it may have been a vaquilla and ordered killed by the ganadero. in the fotos it is hard for me to tell which sex it is.

i and i am quite sure most have been ordered by the ganadero to kill a vaquilla when she was bad and they had a reason.
sometimes the reason was for a barbacoa that day. i have done it many times. not to my liking at all however....

and i have never gotten pissed at a ganadero for offering me a gift animal, quite the opposite. if i am going to inject myself into theyr'e world i have alway's abided by theyr'e standard's.

now, you go on to make a statement , "that you do not kill, and if you did you would surely do it as badly as these hundred's of practicos who hack young animals to death in festivales all over spain and mexico"

"unless they get lucky"

well, i can tell you something that you allready know. professional matador's sometimes get unlucky and take many swords, i believe that emilio oliva took something like twenty seven back in the eighties in madrid and was still calle'd out for saludos al tercio. he was crying!

and, when you say that these event's are amatuer. well, so are the olimpic's! and you forget to note that many of the "amatuer event's" are loaded with ex- professionals. also, sometimes current one's too.

i do not concur with coleman that to prepare to torear in front of poeple that is ok to kill a baby! no one i know of did it that way. if however the ganadero wanted it so it is another matter.

now, if coleman and this fellow arranged to kill this baby, then it's bad stuff.

also, the idea that festivales that include amateurs are "shabby affairs" is ridiculous. maybe in some places but as was mentioned by someone, leon, monterrey. well, these two places are incredibly serious in taurine affairs

both cities put on very serious taurine festivales with amatuers. for it to be said that an aficionado practico only fights small animals is stupid.

bruce

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Green
To: MundoTaurino
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 5:47 PM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

Jim,

You are far from being one of the "uninformed" that I mentioned. I think you know exactly where Cooney and his kind are coming from and what I am trying to say. I haven't held a capote for thirty-seven years, but I fully support your enjoyment of and your participation in these bloodless events.

I want the same as you, which is for these becerros, anojos, erales (and utreros), if they must be killed, to be killed painlessly. Just because some "practico" pays $500+ for an eral it does not give him/her the right to use that creature as a personal pin cushion. We all know toreo cannot avoid some cruelty, but we do not have to take that cruelty to its extreme.

You set an excellent example that should be followed by all toreo hobbyists and that is refusing to use an estoque on an unworthy challenge, a foe that bears zero threat. The ONLY moral excuse for performance killing as opposed to humane killing is if the animal you face is a real threat to your own life, that he has the weapons and wherewithal to wound you if you make a mistake. Then it seems fair, or at least somewhat morally acceptable, to me. Skewering harmless puppy dogs is most certainly not; however many lame excuses and diversions Cooney might scramble to muster.

All hobbyists who wish to practice the use of the estoque should/could use a carreton that can be adjusted to the right height. A height that is more than three feet off the ground! (This also applies to the banderillas). This is how all becerristas used to practice in Spain, so it should be more than good enough for Cooney's effort. At the novillero stage, (facing cattle of 300kg and up), then I agree it is essential for the professional to practice with live creatures -- these do not all have to be fighting stock, just regular steers at the abattoir. Manuel Benitez would often kill over a hundred steers a day when practicing in the late fifties, but of course in the abattoir it is all volapie.

Thanks for the message, I think we are of like mind, Jim.

Regards,
Michael Green

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Cornfield
To: MundoTaurino
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 10:36 AM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

Bruce--Thanks for your response to my post. I'm fairly adamant about all this, but in no way did I want to demean the serious aficionados practicos who perform at the festivales I referred to. I know you're one of these, along with, to name just a few others who I know, Jim Verner, Bill Torres, David Moss, Mario Orlando, Santiago Gonzales, etc., etc. You also know that practically anyone who can pony up the $700, or whatever, can get included on many of these cartels, and the results can be--I know you've seen this yourself--flat nauseating. I have great respect for toreros--amateur or not--who, in turn, respect these beautiful and fascinating animals, and who face them in the ring when they're old enough and well-armed enough to be physically dangerous. I have my own problems about killing things, so I don't care for the idea of taking a junior-sized estoque to the little animals I usually face in the tentadero, I just wouldn't do it, and I don't like it when I see others do it. It's like watching someone play air guitar, and at the end of their performance they kill a puppy. Anyway, don't take my diatribe as an insult to all practicos...wasn't meant that way.

Saludos...JC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Harding"
To: coleman wrote:
But it is really difficult and when it comes to a purse swinger like Michael Green, impossible."

This term beats me. Is it a taurine technical term, describing perhaps Michael Green's very personal style with a muleta? Has Coleman been privileged actually to see Michael swing his purse?

But doesn't "purse" mean "Handbag" in the good old US of A? In which case, thanks to the culture gap, this term might be understood to be a homophobic reference. You know, along the lines of "he doesn't agree with me so he must be gay."

Knowing the normally bitchy nature of most of Mr. Cooney's postings on this mail-list, this jibe seems more authentic than his tongue-in-cheek agreement with Michael Green's comments, and his crooning attempts to defend what has been exposed as his very nasty little business.

Aficionados who don't understand the very essence of the pastime they profess to love have an excuse too. They're neurotic.

"The very essence of" toreo is not killing undersized erales with an estoque. If you think so, you are missing a lot.

keep it clean, Mr. Cooney

brian harding

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Roach"
To: and
> Mike Green,
Please don't tease us anymore about "nobody knows my background, I haven't told anyone". Either let us in on the big secret or give us a break.
> and ,
> Jim Verner,
What's the smallest bovine you've put to the sword, and what's your take on the roasting of Mark F for killing his first becerro.
> and all the rest of you practicos where are you?
I haven't killed a becerro yet, and I don't have the strong desire to either, But Jesus Christ boys this is bullfighting. And if a yearling is put to the sword its all part of it. I'm so sick of this hand-wringing over the death of a becerro and the bullshit about bullfighting being morally indefensiveable. Guilt. you are bad little boys because you enjoy it, but you know its bad , and when some poor little bambi bites the dust
this guilt rushes out of you. Thanks for sharing.
> JR

----- Original Message -----
From: Armando Garcia-Zapata
To: MundoTaurino
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 10:34 AM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

You might be right in your own little "bullfighting world" The truth of the matter is that the pictures that were posted were of something that happens in the ganaderias on an almost daily basis. Document yourself fist of all and I understand that this practice is perfectly normal in our normal "bullfighting world"

Armando

responding to what Michael Green wrote:
Dear Coleman Cooney: As I have nothing to add to what I wrote before, other than to correct some of your message below, I shall insert my comments in blue...

----- Original Message -----
From: bruce f hutton
To: MundoTaurino
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 5:50 PM
Subject: [MTgoogle] Re: Coleman's school

jim, thank you. good reply that makes thing's a little clearer. the real truth is that not many festivales for aficionados practicos are held in spain. some but not many. mexico is king in that regard.

normally an aficionado practico is a strange creature, and that is if he/she becomes very serious. they actually graduate up to serious novillos and sometimes even toros!(yes michael it is true)

so, my point is that practicos come in all shapes and sizes. much the same as novilleros or matadors. i have been on
cards with current novilleros who had no idea at all.

jim, you are a wonderfull cow fighter. and that is what you choose to do. you take the blow's and continue. there are others like you who do the same thing and i am glad.

as to the idea that anyone can pay the dollars and kill an animal, kinda true but not really. and it doe's depend on the
promoter and i think the city.

in tijuana lately it has happened. however it does not go on in the interior. the average weight of those novillos are from 260
to 320 kilos.

just the paying of dollars absolutely does not get you on the cartel. most of the men who organize these things are bright. and or ganaderos.

however, you are right sometimes as some individuals who don't belong kinda' slip in.

bruce

great flamenco

pps real hound dog with the vacas